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View Full Version : Total Copyright Confusion!! Whos Right & Whos Wrong?


mech
08-22-2002, 06:34 AM
This discussion started a while back at http://www.foogie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16 on the use of scans and a lot of information was passed. Now essentially the same to use or not to use issue is cropping up again but concerning AV movies. This is definitely an issue that should be very important to every Webmaster working the Asian niche so Im bringing it up again. Does anyone know 100% that the copyright issue falls on one side or the other (legal or illegal) or is it all speculation? Many, many Webmasters (including large companies) have been using this legal unlicensed content for a long time but if nothing is for certain how do you know that when you wake up tomorrow you might not have a cease and desist order in your mail and your site temporarily offline?

CrazyAL
08-22-2002, 07:15 AM
You know I posted a good chunk on this topic, but bottom line I think if your planning on going that route you should really talk to a legal advisor that understands the laws here (or where ever you live) and in Japan.....but I am almost 100% sure they would strongly recommend using only content you have rights too simple as that.

I will admit I use urabon and scans on my site, and that's as far as I choose to go right now but even these days I am seriously thinking about pulling them off the site. Sounds stupid? I don't think so... having rights to something is more then just paying for the use of it, it also protects you and like someone here stated I forgot who if anything should ever happen with the law the company/person that sold you the content is the responsible one and the one who will get the heat not you. I seriously think basing it on the fact "it was illegal to shoot so then no one has the rights to it" is somewhat a false sense of security :oops: and even if this is true all it does is protect you from someone suing you not from anything else. I am not lawyer but what the fuck happens if some agency comes and asks you to prove all your models are legal? how the fuck are you going to be able to do this? I see no way....."oh well if you look at this girl she has pubic hair that means she is 18" I don't know if they would buy that.....I am sure it would be just as equally hard for them to prove she is not 18 but really you could avoid this whole problem if you had rights to the product.

mech
08-22-2002, 07:40 AM
I know this is unconstructive to the conversation but even with "age verification" trouble can arise, lest we forget Traci Lords.

Scuzz
08-22-2002, 09:19 AM
More Poop...
Al, you're very worried about copyright issues and whatnot. That's all well and good.
Let me tell you a story seeing as how you're from Canada.
I have a friend in the lower mainland who got sick and tired of lecturing at her university. She asked herself "where's the money?"
Ah ha! Porn!...She felt uncomfortable with the porn pics themselves, so she decided to open up a toy and accessories store. She lined up some suppliers, paid big $$$ for a shopping cart, website, all that sorta stuff.
Then, before going live, and having a background in Law, she decided to check into the rules and regulations. Well, of course, it cost her another few thousand dollars, inspectors, forms, blah blah blah....
Took over a year before she was allowed to do anything. If she wanted to sell a movie, she had to buy it, pay the government to watch it, and then they would say whether or not she could sell it.
She wanted to do some promo pics for some accessories. She had to hire a model, take the pics, & submit them to the goddam gov. again.
The best part is yet to come!
Bondage! You should check out what you're allowed to show in Canada!
Girl must not look unhappy.... it must be obvious that she has one hand free, or can free herself.... No sex..... On and on and on.
I showed her about 200 Kuni pics...I think there were about 3 that would have been legal in Canada. Even though our servers may be in the states, the Canuck authorities can track us down :cry: and kill us :wink: because we are Canadian.
Anyhow, after a year or two of going around and around trying to be legal, she finally said fuckit! She just went ahead and did as she pleased, the gov forgot all about her, and now I hear she's doing rather well.
There used to be a hosting outfit set up in Montreal. I can't remember the name of it, but I thought it was something like "beaverhost" I found it one day while looking for a new server. They would host adult sites, but their list of dos and don'ts was about 10 miles long. A guy would have had to inspect every pic with a magnifying glass to make sure he didn't break the rules.
I didn't sign up.

:uhoh: I figger that no matter how much you worry, you'll always be able to find something else to worry about. :uhoh:

CrazyAL
08-22-2002, 09:45 AM
You can think like that, but it's better to have rights to then not too.

walter
08-22-2002, 09:58 AM
Mech: as a fellow Canuck I really don't think you will have too much problem. The reason being you have your offices in Alberta and your server (as I remember) in the USA. So where are they going to server the papers?

That's one of the big reasons I have a Canadian (Ontario) corporation with a subsidiary corporation in the US, my servers are in the US and I live in France. If someone wants to serve legal papers to my company they have to do so in 4 seperate places and in 3 different countries. It is not worth the costs.

No, I am not trying to duck legal obligations, I am mearly protecting my butt which is the main job of any company owner.

Most of the copyright holders out there are just normal people and they will send you an email telling you that a pic on your site is protected by their copyright. If this happens, remove the pic poste-haste! and respond to the email with something of an apology.

I own the exclusive rights to well over 20,000 pics. If every time I saw one of those pics on someone else's site (which happens almost daily) I sued then I would have nothing but large legal bills and a bunch of ulcers.

The best advice anyone ever gave me was incorporate! Protect thy butt!

Scuzz
08-22-2002, 12:50 PM
You can think like that, but it's better to have rights to then not too.
Hmmm...
The point of the story was just to throw more confusion on the issue. :twisted:
If you had the rights and had bought and paid for something that our dear (Canadian) govenment
decided was illegal, wouldn't you be in more trouble than if it was "stolen", "hotlinked", or just
an exact copy of someone elses work?
Don't forget that we come under Canadian law first, not American. Everybody seems to forget that.
I once had a virtual server located in France. For some reason I wound up with FTP access all the way to the root.
My site was quite clean, but the thing was full of lolita and pirate satellite card sites. Both highly illegal in the states,
although the satellite thing is, I think still up in the air in Canuckville.

CrazyAL
08-22-2002, 01:20 PM
Well when I said running into any problems with the law I ment not having proof of age, not anything else.

The bondage thing in Canada is a stupid ass law, I have heard about it a few times....every time I hear what people can and can't do with bondage in Canada it cracks me up. I thought the US had similar laws with bondage?

Scuzz
08-22-2002, 01:43 PM
Proof of age is another thing entirely. As far as I remember, they've finally raised the age
of consensual sex in canada from 14 to???
The problem now is... If you're 15 (or something) and you go to bed with a 19 year old, it's OK.
If it's a 25 yr old, it's not.
All that aside, what really pisses me off is that stuff like this is totally legal in the states,
and they don't give a shit about the rest of the planet. (economics in action)
:pissed: http://lol-cash.com/ :pissed:
Take a tour or two, and be ready with a barf-bag.
Gimme a fargin break!

iLostMyPwdAgain
08-22-2002, 05:12 PM
Walter's right, get incorporated, turn it into a company. it's the safe way to play with porn!

JACK
08-22-2002, 07:30 PM
Things in Canada against the law:

Sex with bondage or when one person is tied up or restricted from moving.
Oral sex/facials are labelled sex with degradation.

Nothing is allowed where blood, menstruation etc are shown. Other than
that, no depiction of sex with a minor, no 'lolita' looking girls, and
recently, there has been some concern here about the legality of anal sex.
Having said all that, most videographers in Canada appear to be ignoring
the law and doing all those things until they get caught. Usually there is
a fine to pay and a suspended sentence. Unless they can prove child porn, of course.


Walter is right its not worth it for photographers to take legal action against a site for using illegal photos unless they have more then 10 set of you work. And if its a small site its that doesnt make a lot of money its still not worth it. If it a big site they most of the time it does even go to court the web master just hand over his hole site server and every thing to the photographer and thats that.

When I see some one using my photos or movies I never taking legal action Its just not worth it in my books. I just send them a E-mail and telling them they have 7 days to pay me for my photos and Ill send them there paper work most of the time there more then happy to do so.
K yes some time I get guys who dont want to pay but no big deal I just E-mail there credit card company and they put a freeze on people signing up then two days later I send another E-mail to there domain name holder and they yank that then two days later I E-mail there ISP. Game over.

mech
08-22-2002, 09:12 PM
:pissed: http://lol-cash.com/ :pissed: I'm not going to ask how you know the URL to that affiliate program :fishy: but I will request that you not post a link to it or anything similar again. I really don't think any of us at Foogie (you included) want to be associated with that crap even in link form. :pissed:

Does anyone know 100% that the copyright issue falls on one side or the other (legal or illegal) or is it all speculation?It seems like legal or illegal it's all a pain in the ass. Either the copyright owners can come down on you or the Government can like a ton of bricks. What's a Webmaster to do? :cry:

mech
08-22-2002, 10:03 PM
Walter's right, get incorporated, turn it into a company. it's the safe way to play with porn!Maybe I'm missing something but how does becoming incorporated protect you?

Shoplifter
08-22-2002, 11:07 PM
The creators of any given content have the copyright, period. If an uncensored version of it shows up here it is still copyrighted.

For the time being it seems that the copyrights are not being aggressively enforced by Japanese companies. But they are aware of the demand in North America for their product and it is only a short time I think until they will all have distribution deals with USA companies. Typhoon is a current example of this.

So you are taking a risk if you use this content. As well you are also taking a risk with your reputation and sites anyways. If I had an AB site
and used the licensed AB Asian content and saw someone who was outselling me by going and merely reselling stolen content it would be 5 minutes before they were down. I can't sell my neighbours car and undercut the legitimate car dealer etc.

ecchi mecha
08-23-2002, 01:19 AM
The creators of any given content have the copyright, period. If an uncensored version of it shows up here it is still copyrighted.

hmmmmmmmmmm....

with a name like "Shoplifter" posting only two posts both regarding licensed content...one would image you to be a troll here to kick up some dust...hehe

foogie gets its first troll :thumb:

mech
08-23-2002, 02:17 AM
Don't rag on Shoplifter, he has a valid point. Everything essentially has a copyright owner, it's all a matter of whether or not it's enforced. Either way, unauthorized use to gain a personal profit is still a copyright violation. I don't think that's something one of us will refute but we're all getting tangled in the "it's illegal in the country of production so is it or isn't it public domain in all other countries?" mess. And I'm beginning to believe that we'll never know. Weve got both counterpoints and were going to start rambling in circles soon.

ecchi mecha
08-23-2002, 03:08 AM
I see a lot of japanese sites producing their own content for the web...they would probably not be so happy if you bootlegged it. There are sites like xcity.jp that show videos made by the companies that are under the xcity umbrella. And than there are tons of underground jp sites that sell access to ripped av movies or urabon. I mean..that's just what I see out there.

Hard to say, mech...it is kind of like napster or getting photoshop off the net for free...it's a change in the technology. I probably wouldn't run a bootleg site, but I agree that some of the best images or videos are bootleg :roll:

Oh...and...damn! I just thought about the fact that probably 90% of links from Asian TGP's go to galleries posting scans...hehe (just helping to muddy the waters a bit) :smoking:

ecchi mecha
08-23-2002, 03:09 AM
Don't rag on Shoplifter, he has a valid point.

hard not to call him a troll with a name like "Shoplifter" only posting on the topic about licensed content :lol:

Shoplifter
08-23-2002, 04:00 AM
Don't rag on Shoplifter, he has a valid point.

hard not to call him a troll with a name like "Shoplifter" only posting on the topic about licensed content :lol:

I am better known on GFY, I have lurked here for a bit but never been motivated to post before. Some may know who I am and what I do.

I was helping a buddy do an AB site and took a look at some of the others. I was able to download a bunch of videos that were totally stolen
including complete movies by Private that I know AB does not have the rights to. 98% of the Asian stuff there is dubious to say the least. I was truly a bit shocked that there was not even any discretion involved in
the amount of stuff being used without license.

I think that if theft in general goes too far it will snap back and hurt a lot
of webmasters. Maybe it's a sign of harder times that many are willing to take more extreme risks.

ecchi mecha
08-23-2002, 04:29 AM
ahh...sorry Shoplifter! It's just the name and topic....my mistake :oops:

The Asian market is kind of a backwater, since it is so flooded with scans of oversea Asian mags...people get the idea that it doesn't matter.

Hell...here's the other side of the coin...have you ever heard of the amount of bootleg software used in someplace like Latin America or the former Soviet eastern bloc countries? I've heard 70 - 90%...what do they care they are not paying for Microsoft, etc....maybe say a Canadian webmaster will get the same idea about scans from a Japanese mag...not saying what's right, mind you.

Definately posting complete movies from Private is going to get you in trouble, though...

CrazyAL
08-23-2002, 05:21 AM
As well you are also taking a risk with your reputation and sites anyways. If I had an AB site
and used the licensed AB Asian content and saw someone who was outselling me by going and merely reselling stolen content it would be 5 minutes before they were down.

Very true, I don't think many people in this business want to work with a company that justs rips off someone else's product and sells it as there own. Would be very difficult for you to become mainstream performing business like this, at least in north America.

JACK
08-23-2002, 08:34 PM
Mech

TO answer your question on copyright issue for AV movies go check out the V-CDs there are renting out in china town and read what they say for on the C-VD also Hollywood movie has a good selection of uncensored Japanese movie on VHS but the news one I found was two years old LOL

Shoplifter
08-28-2002, 09:59 PM
As well you are also taking a risk with your reputation and sites anyways. If I had an AB site
and used the licensed AB Asian content and saw someone who was outselling me by going and merely reselling stolen content it would be 5 minutes before they were down.

Very true, I don't think many people in this business want to work with a company that justs rips off someone else's product and sells it as there own. Would be very difficult for you to become mainstream performing business like this, at least in north America.

It's also a big fish/little fish issue. Enforcing copyrights favours the big fish who can afford to buy or produce the content. Anyone who just steals content and competes with it steals not only the content, but steals the sales away from the established legitimate webmasters.

I think as times in the adult world become leaner there will be more crackdowns on content theft and the use of unlicensed content.

What I saw on Adultbouncer when I set up my buddy's site was jaw dropping. It is practically a "porn warez" ftp site. I think the first thing he is going to do after his site is up is fax in a letter of complaint about what is going on there.

steve_la
01-01-2003, 09:33 AM
"Total Copyright Confusion!! Who’s Right & Who’s Wrong?"

There's no confusion...it is obvious, unless you are hiding under a rock. What you do do and don't do are different stories, though